Marsh or Willow ??

[PeterB]

Having just calmed down from the excitement of seeing my first ever Marsh Tit at Leighton Moss, today on a 3 hour ramble at Wendover Woods I briefly caught this. Sorry, this is what you get hand held.

[astafjevs]

I'm going with marsh, Peter but the only distinguishing feature I've got to go on is the bib, which looks within the scope of 'tidy and well defined' to me.

A quick google indicates marsh tits are likely to occur in Wendover Woods, not sure if the same is true of willow?

I will see if anything we managed to capture on camera accurately shows a good indication of 'willow' tonight. I wouldn't hold my breath, though.

[PeterB]

Thanks Stuart. I think the bus rule of once you see one, three more sightings will come along applies here.

Wendover is a mixture of coniferous and deciduous trees with no wet areas. Not a likely place for a Willow.

[alanjns]

I will go for Marsh tit also - here are my dodgy shots of a Willow that might help for comparison (or not!) They were taken at Far Ings last September.

[astafjevs]

I think they do help, Alan, you can see the thing I was alluding to in my blog about the 'longer haired' appearance. Or at least, I think I can see it

[PeterB]

Thanks Alan.

Incidentally, at the time I did think it was a Black Cap and nearly didn't take a picture. Lucky I will take a picture of anything.

[Dave Appleton]

The most diagnostic visual feature isn't clear from the photo (it needs a really sharp photo of the bill with no strong light) and several of the supplementary features aren't altogether clear either. So any ID comes with caveats, but I agree with Alan - it looks good for Marsh Tit (which in most places is now by far the most likely species following a massive decline in Willow Tits in the mid 1990s).

[PeterB]

What's the ID feature on the bill Dave? I haven't read about that one.

[Dave Appleton]

It's relatively newly described - not in any but the newer field guides - but it appears to be diagnostic if you can discern it for certain. Marsh Tit has a tiny pale spot on the base of the upper mandible, just above the cutting edge, whereas this is lacking in Willow Tit. Problem is it's very small and so not easy to see, and light can reflect (especially if the bill is wet) giving the appearance of a pale spot when it's not there. But if you can ascertain for 100% sure whether it's there or not then it does appear to be diagnostic. Otherwise the best feature is the call!

[Dennis]

Thats just what I was going to say, Dave. lol

It does look good for Marsh tit to me, Peter.

Originally Posted by Dave Appleton

It's relatively newly described - not in any but the newer field guides - but it appears to be diagnostic if you can discern it for certain. Marsh Tit has a tiny pale spot on the base of the upper mandible, just above the cutting edge, whereas this is lacking in Willow Tit. Problem is it's very small and so not easy to see, and light can reflect (especially if the bill is wet) giving the appearance of a pale spot when it's not there. But if you can ascertain for 100% sure whether it's there or not then it does appear to be diagnostic. Otherwise the best feature is the call!